topic Re: Finite friction blocks in 3D Part & Assembly Design

Finite friction blocks

346gnu — Fri, 04 May 2018 14:01:06 GMT

Hello All,I am trying to develop a feel for the behaviour of Creo3.0's finite friction.So starting with a simple model Text book concludes no sliding.Reality tells us that the pressure distribution is not like the text book Amongst other things,the load pulling the green block

Re: Finite friction blocks

unickque — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:21:40 GMT

It seems you are doing research on Creo/Simulate behaviour.... I doubt anyone has looked into this more closely than you have.

A few remarks:

* You have fully constrained the sides of the bottom plate. This may be why you do not get a nice even pressure distribution, because the sides of the bottom plate are now infinitely stiff

* Your top plate appears to be hanging over the edge, which would mean large displacements... not sure that is right?

* All movement in first step: that kind of makes sense because you will have micro-movements due to elastic deformations. Once that is settled, I can imagine there is no more relative movement b/c the tangential force cannot overcome friction. (I could even imagine that Creo first calculates elastic deformations and then contact in the next phase of the calculation, but that is pure speculation from my side).

Re: Finite friction blocks

346gnu — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 07:49:25 GMT

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the notes.

I would not expect an even pressure distribution, both contacting surfaces are unconstrained and elastic. Ignoring friction for a moment, the contact pressure distribution will cause the green block to 'dome' with a lower pressure in the centre and the edges will dig in (I visualise it as a Gibb's effect). Cylindrical rolling elements in bearings have this problem and rather than rectangular cross section they can be given a curved profile (logarithmic) such that the pressure distribution remains linear-ish and peaks at the edges reduced/removed.

The top plate is hanging because is has moved 9mm in the first time step. This is not right. Movement has to begin at the loaded surface and 'propagate along' the structure (try dragging a carpet). In both models everything was in step 1.

The most bothersome thing at the moment is that the interface force and tan force measures are simply wrong (or a badly set up model coupled with poor interpretation).

ttfn

Re: Finite friction blocks

auijttewaal — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 14:35:27 GMT

Hi Charles,

I encountered the same problem. You did not mention you're datecode, but I tested it in M040 and it exists in that version. One of our customers came with the question. I opened a support case at PTC for this issue referring to this post because of you're precise explanation (thanks!).

Agnes

Re: Finite friction blocks

346gnu — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 15:13:28 GMT

Agnes,

I tried it in M010 and M030. (and Ansys).

Let me know what the outcome is.

Charles

Re: Finite friction blocks

unickque — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 18:58:58 GMT

I'm curious... why do you want to do this in Creo if you can do it in Ansys?

Re: Finite friction blocks

346gnu — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 19:21:33 GMT

Patrick,

Sometimes we agree with the client that deliverables are provided in a particular version such that the client can review using their own licenses.

Also, the ability to offer either s/w provides flexibility.

I want to be sure we can use Creo3's finite friction effectively and with confidence before making the statement 'we can do that in Creo'.

At the moment I know to say that we would only do it in Ansys and work on the Creo functionality in spare time.

Charles

Re: Finite friction blocks

ehaenen — Mon, 29 Jun 2015 17:30:31 GMT

Hi Charles

Excellent job.

I've encountered similar problems with "forklifting a pallet". friction, no friction, different meshes, timesteps, smooth load application, the works. But no convergence. To put it more bluntly, no succesful timestep at all, so no idea where it wants to move.

I also received this nasty remark of excessive motion, also a message that "full sliding has occurred at one of the contact surfaces" (which should be absolutely impossible given my constraints) I rebuilt the model in Creo 2 and the analysis runs without problems.

Something is not right in Creo 3.0

I would like to urge PTC to pay attention please. I can not use Creo 3.0 for normal business, which is a shame 10 months after the release was first presented.

Re: Finite friction blocks

ehaenen — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 15:18:31 GMT

Steven

I've now seen 3 different models containing contact failing in Creo 3.0, which ran after rebuilding in Creo 2.0

It's simply not economically clever to move to Creo 3.0 I've not seen an advantage of the new contact algorithm yet, quite the contrary.

I will not start customer projects in Creo 3.0 until I'm sure it can be done effectively.

Re: Finite friction blocks

ehaenen — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 16:48:07 GMT

Steven

I've tried finite and zero friction. no difference, no convergence in either case, for all 3 models.

My 3 Examples contained flat planes under normal load, concentric cilinders, 1 supporting another and a model with a tube in a hole. friction or no friction, contact did not converge in creo 3.0, but did converge (no friction) in creo 2. I've not tried infinite friction.

Erik

Re: Finite friction blocks

auijttewaal — Mon, 06 Jul 2015 14:05:29 GMT

Hi All,

PTC has acknowledged that the tangential forces are NOT correct; SPR 4571852 with HIGH PRIORITY, for those who can view it.

I'm not sure about the rest of the results;

-You're 'average slippage' measure is (very) negative, so telling you there is NO SLIPPAGE (seems correct)

-The displacement you show is only in the outline of the block, not in the centre, so is this slippage or just deformation of the block as a result of the forces?

Furthermore, it is clear that to get (probably) correct displacement results with finate friction (in the current release) you MUST have about 11 time-steps and a very fine mesh. With standard analyses settings the study will report large displacement but in my experience it does not report that convergence is not obtained. However, the fact that it jumps in a SPA from poly 3 to 9 does indicate it.

Re: Finite friction blocks

auijttewaal — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 13:22:29 GMT

Dear Charles,

New work around provided by PTC R&D;

In the current release of Creo 3 (m040) in order to get correct results for Interface_force with finite friction you need to set the following settings;

- Contact should be surface-surface (not component-component)

- Use study type Quick Check (SPA is currently not correct)

- Ensure you have at least 10-11 time steps

I've tested it and my Interface_force is now correct! Try it, I would say...

I'm still in discussion with R&D about the tang_traction and the max_tang_force results...

Re: Finite friction blocks

auijttewaal — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:21:53 GMT

I have a reaction from PTC about the tang_traction and the max_tang_force;

“The measure Interface1_max_tang_tractioncan be used to get the required tangential force as: tang_force = Interface1_max_tang_traction* Interface1_area = 0.02749214*900 = 24.7429. This is one
of the workaround to get there – work in QC (Quick check) Analysis as discussed. This is approximate solution
because we are calculating this from MAX traction and not from average traction. The other workaround is to use
enforced displacement loading instead of force as I demonstrated in my earlier mail.”

"The measure Interface1_tang_force was incorrectly reported by engine in Creo 3.0 and R&D is
working on this. There are other SPRs on this same line about this tangential force measure and R&D have plans to fix them by December 2015 end. R&D will provided a fix in the next Creo 3.0 M080 Datecode versions for all SPRs those falls on this line. Hope that is not too late. Sorry for delay
and I appreciate patience."

I would say, applause for PTC for listening and committing yourself to a fix-date!

Re: Finite friction blocks

rjakel — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 09:52:13 GMT

Hi all,

just last Tuesday I did a presentation about the new finite friction contact model in Creo 3.0 at the SAXSIM (SAXon SImulation Meeting, www.saxsim.de), Technical University of Chemnitz, Germany. It is attached for your information. You should obtain a lot of information regarding contact modeling in Simulate. After reading it, you’ll not be very surprised that all attempts to use Creo 3 finite friction contact are not very successful.

However, also Creo 2 users who just use the friction free and infinite friction contact models should obtain helpful information about code functionalities.

Fortunately, the new Creo Simulate responsible from PTC, Jose Coronado, participated to that meeting, too, since he did the opening presentation about the Creo Simulate 4.0 news. So, PTC has got the info.

Best, Roland

P.S.: I posted a lot of simulation-specific presentations under my new blog "Rolos Simulate Sources":

https://www.ptcusercommunity.com/blogs/RSS

I’ll update that from time to time with new material. Hope it's useful for you all.

Re: Finite friction blocks

346gnu — Sat, 26 Mar 2016 13:23:44 GMT

Roland,

A big thanks to that. You have answered the initial question.

I repeated the '2 blocks' study in Ansys

Re: Creo Simulate vs ANSYS Workbench contact analysis w. friction.

But didn't follow it up as I thought the effort/reward ratio would be hopeless. Besides, Mark Fischer is watching?

I have felt for a long time that new functionality should be tested, without prejudice, by companies facing real engineering applications first.

Re: Missing the maximum, global sens and optimiser

The errors, limitations, frustrations, work around attempts and relative importance of usability you report echoes our experience 100%.

But I have to be pragmatic and get the correct engineering answers; I have restarted work in Ansys. I do not have the time to report all the fundamental issues I find.

I hope the response from PTC is tangible.

Regards

Charles

Re: Finite friction blocks

ehaenen — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 08:25:53 GMT

Hi Roland

Thank you very much for your worthwhile paper. Happy that someone puts effort into understanding how Simulate works and show what doesn't work.

In the mean time I'm seriously beginning to loose faith in PTC regarding their support for the simulation software.

We spend too much time finding workarounds for things that should work but don't.

Maybe it's time to start looking for a serious alternative.

Kind regards to all

Erik

Re: Finite friction blocks

unickque — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 15:58:32 GMT

It would be interesting to hear what the technical committee of Creo/Simulate thinks about this (or more in general: about product quality and timely announcement and fixing of bugs). Does anyone know whether the Simulate TC is reading along on this forum?

Re: Finite friction blocks

ChrisKaswer — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 17:45:38 GMT

Patrick - Yes, I monitor the analysis group and have been a long-time TC member. This topic is of interest to me and I am trying to spend as much time as I can to dig further and follow-up on the data/presentation Roland shared with us (great info by the way - thanks Roland!). Honestly, I use ANSYS for all contact problems I have simply because of its significantly longer history and more robust solver. It also allows users to modify many input factors and considers most any other non-linear behavior to be solved along with it. I do encourage, and expect, that all our engineering staff use Simulate for as much of their work as possible - mostly for individual part analysis as ANSYS is a more challenging software to use properly. I remember being part of a group that unanimously asked for finite friction back around 2001. Now that we have it, it will take some time to sort out the "opportunities for improvement". TC meetings are coming-up in June, with the annual conference, and we'll see what progress has been made to any issues found by that time.

Cheers,

Chris

Re: Finite friction blocks

unickque — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 21:28:42 GMT

Thank you for your reply Christopher. Your answer made me think a bit more about this.

Like you, I don't do contact analyses in Creo/Simulate; in that case Abaqus is my tool of choice. Part of the problem here may be that the Simulate users grow over the years, and so does the complexity of their analyses. So they run into really advanced problems at times. Especially in new features that are quite advanced, you can expect to run into some bugs.

However, this should not be an excuse to let the software quality slide. Not everyone has the option to use different software, so all the features in Creo should work properly. This is hugely important for Creo/Simulate, because the majority its users are not experienced CAE users, and so they are likely not to notice when something is wrong.

If something does not work as it should, an prompt warning should go out to all users, and a fix should be expected within a reasonable amount of time. (What is 'reasonable' depends on the severeness of the issue and the complexity of the fix). This is where PTC is seriously underperforming. See for instance the issue on the non-symmetric results on symmetrically loaded conic parts in this topic.

I suspect the majority of Simulate users could care less about results being off in an analysis with finite friction contacts. But I hope you agree that PTC should make more work of announcing problems and releasing fixes for them, and I hope the TC will help point this out to them.

Hearing Erik announce that he is losing faith and is considering looking for alternative software is quite shocking. He is the national Mechanica guru and has given enthusiastic presentations on the software for decades. He does things with the software that other people did not think were possible. For him to lose faith in the software is really incredibly bad.

Re: Finite friction blocks

346gnu — Thu, 31 Mar 2016 08:07:15 GMT

Chris,

My hat is off to those that understand the theoretical mechanics at a level I struggle to remember and then they code it as well. I can't do that. What frustrated me was the rapidity with which I went right back to a very basic models to find the issues arising meant it unusable.

Letting a forum Guru or two stress the functionality on real world problems as part of the QA (as early on in the s/w design as feasible) is far more likely to knock the corners off before release into the wild, provide initial expertise to first level support and potentially some knowledge base info.

I am aware ,,, the cost/legal/licensing/logistical/time/organisation/pressure to release/shareholders/competition/corporate secrecy ,,,

Simulate's cad integration is second to none, usability incredible, its bang for buck is amazing and then to get finite friction as well ... !

But my view is firmly 'robust' not 'release headlines'. If that means wait then I would rather do that.

atb

Charles