32 Replies Latest reply: Jun 21, 2017 8:11 AM by TomD.inPDX RSS

    Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing

    msteis Bronze

      Can someone tell me what happens if a company discontinues their maintenence with PTC. Does their network license get modified some way that their software stops working, or do they just loose their tech support and upgrades?

       

      Thanks,

       

      Matt

        • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
          MarcoTosin Platinum

          Matt, if you don't pay for maintenance your license file doesn't change.

           

          You have no more tech support or upgrade and, if your SW return in maintenance, you have to pay for all the years you haven't paid.

           

          Marco

            • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
              msteis Bronze

              Marco,

               

              PTC's reseller can't or won't just sell you a new seat of Parametric at full price say 5-10 years later without paying the 5-10 years in back maintenance?

               

              Matt

                • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                  MarcoTosin Platinum

                  Yes, but it depends how much you have to pay.

                   

                  Maintenance cost about 20% of every SW license, then you have to apply your discount on MNT (30-40-50%)?

                   

                  So if you have 50 % of discount then you pay 10% of the value of the the license every year, therefore reactivating maintenance it's worth.

                   

                  Marco

                    • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                      TomUminn PTC Community Champion

                      Wow, I want to know how to get 50% off maintenance.

                       

                      Like others said, licenses are permanent. The only functionality you will lose is access to technical support and possibly some of the online help content. The software will keep running just fine.

                       

                      No matter how long you've been off maintenance, you will never pay more to get back on than new-purchase price. As others mentioned, PTC will typically become very flexible when trying to get you back on maintenance.

                       

                      If you're still on maintenance, and not yet running the latest version of everything, make sure you request new licenses and download all current versions of the software before your maintenance expires.

                        • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                          rrajan Platinum

                          if you have more than one license then you should have atleast 51% of individual license seats under maintenance....

                           

                          otherwise they would stop your current maintenance..also.

                          • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                            MarcoTosin Platinum

                            Tom,

                            we are not a very big factory, because we have about 150 seats of Windchill and a little bit more of 50 Creo.

                             

                            But when we renewed our three years maintenance agreement with PTC, we also have planned a list of possible developement project on Windchill.

                             

                            For this project we are required to buy some SW, so we discuss with PTC about buying SW and have less maintenance to pay.

                             

                            Depending on how much SW we could buy, PTC have proposed us three different amount of discount.

                             

                            Then it was all about negotiation.

                      • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                        Doug Schaefer PTC Community Champion

                        Actually, you only pay 12 months back plus the year forward. If you've been inactive for less than a year, you only pay for the time you've been inactive. We did this back in 2009 when the economy tanked, coming back to maintenance in 2012, I think. Nice thing was, because they were interested in our return, we could renegotiate what we owned and reduce our maintenance bill substantially. We tried to negotiate in 2009, but they wouldn't budge then.

                         

                        However, PTC has no written policy for this that I know of. They can change it at will, and have in the past. When we dropped maintenance in 2009 it was only 9 months, I believe, but it changed to 12 months by the time we renewed.

                         

                        As far as repurchasing, as I understand PTC wants you to renew rather that re-buy. Two year's of maintenance is cheaper than a new seat. And, as I said, once you're off for a while they are eager to get you back and more flexible.

                      • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                        jlynch Copper

                        Sorry for digging up an old post but there's not much info out there and my question seems relevant to this conversation.

                        We have 7 seats of Creo, including 1 Flex 3c, 1 Eng II, and 2 ISDX and AAX addons  so our maintenance was coming in pretty high this year. and the reality is, we're still on Creo 3, and we are using more and more SolidWorks, because this is what our clients are asking for.

                         

                        So we thought it prudent to look at down scaling our support (after our reseller trying to push us to subscription) to just 4 heavy seats. We were then told that if we do this, we would have to relinquish our licences that are no longer on support.. have anyone ever heard of this? so we couldn't run our 3 Creo parametric licences that we no longer have support for even though we bought the software outright?

                         

                        any info appreciated.. but I'm tempted to just drop support completely (we only use it for software upgrades and right now we are on creo 3, moved to creo 4 when ever a client wants us to which we currently have licences for and move any other workload we have to solidworks and deal with creo 5 if / when we need to..) 

                         

                        really frustrated right now to be honest...

                          • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                            BenLoosli PTC Community Champion

                            It all depends on how the licenses are 'upgraded'. If PTC is combining some sub-licenses into new bundled functionality, they could be removing some core licenses from your pool to lower costs. You can also just stop paying maintenance on certain modules to freeze them and work withy the current functionality.

                            I have 8 licenses on active maintenance and 7 inactive. I can use all 15 if 7 users are on Wildfire 4, I think is when we stopped. The other 8 are currently set for Creo 3.

                            • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                              STEVEG PTC Community Champion

                              Subscriptions are only for a year.  They have an expiration date.  Perpetual licenses are licenses you own.  They will continue to work and have no expiration date.

                                • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                  jlynch Copper

                                  Hi Steve,

                                   

                                  yes this was my understanding also - but that changed when our reseller said if we only continue support (not subscription)  on 4 of our 7 licenses then PTC would disable our other 3. which I know wasn't the case because I have a few additional WF5 licences.

                                   

                                  Hi Ben - yup see your point there on the "upgrade". I'll make sure that's doesn't happen.

                                   

                                  They tried really hard to move us to subscription, but in my view this is not a good idea. our current licences would transition to subscription and if we ever cannot pay for some reason (recessions happen!) we lose the ability to even open our older perpetual versions..

                                  and the fact that we still use creo 3, and are covered with existing maintenance to creo 4, we would have to pay 3 years of subscription before we get the benefit of creo 5 (only because we would't upgrade too quickly)

                                    • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                      TomUminn PTC Community Champion

                                      Time to find a new reseller.  Perpetual licenses are licenses you own.  Period.  There was a time where PTC would not allow you to continue with support if you didn't keep at least 50% of the products on maintenance, but I don't know if that's still the case.  In some ways it really doesn't matter.  As soon as a new version of the software is released, those licenses off subscription will be stuck at the last version they were issued for.  We have plenty of licenses that we've chosen to discontinue support on.  They all still function fine.  With a perpetual license you never have to talk to PTC again to continue using the product.  With a subscription, your ability to run the software ceases the day the subscription runs out.

                                        • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                          TomD.inPDX PTC Community Champion

                                          Or you could have the dumb luck I had yesterday and have your MAC address become dysfunctional.

                                          DEAD IN THE WATERS!

                                           

                                          I am assuming you can manage licenses without maintenance.  It was always the "promise".

                                           

                                          ?

                                           

                                          I'm covered on maintenance and I still use Creo 2.0  M040.

                                          So what have I been getting for my money?

                                          It's called insurance  (future proofing) and PTC banks on it big, as do MANY others.

                                          Now they are forcing it as a new way to cover stockholders with impressive lipstick.

                                          SW did the same very loudly and proudly... PTC snuck it in with a deceptive promotion.

                                          I dropped SW like a hot rock leaving me with two self-managed licenses (installs/one user).

                                          My business, however is burdened by PTC.  In some years, significantly.

                                          I wouldn't give up my license, but if you talk with VARs, we will be paying more and more.

                                           

                                          I don't even want to get into the VAR thing...

                                    • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                      Martin Hanak Platinum

                                      James,

                                       

                                      in 2015 PTC allowed to stop maintenance paying partially (for example drop 3 of 7 and remain active 4 of 7).

                                       

                                      Unfortunately in 2017 partial maintenance stopping is not possible anymore . Simply said PTC changed rules...

                                       

                                      MH

                                        • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                          jlynch Copper

                                          Hi Martin,

                                          yes this does seem to be PTC's current policy - just off the phone from our VAR and double confirmed for is we partially renew, we will only get a license which includes those continued, not our old ones.    it's a very aggressive policy by PTC I think..

                                          lot's to think about..

                                           

                                          James

                                            • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                              BenLoosli PTC Community Champion

                                              It is illegal for PTC to cancel your licenses that you have paid for!

                                              You bought a perpetual license to use Creo 2. It is yours forever even if you do not pay maintenance. The only PTC support you can get is to retrieve a new copy of your license file for a new computer.

                                              I have a license file that says 2 seats of Flex3C are at Wildfire 5/Creo level and 15 seats at Creo2 level. My maintenance is only being paid on those 15 seats.

                                               

                                              I may just grab new licenses to have them. ☺

                                            • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                              TomUminn PTC Community Champion

                                              Martin, do you have a link to these "rules"?  I'm looking through the different legal agreements and I'm not seeing anything about this.

                                              • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                                TomUminn PTC Community Champion

                                                I just had a nice chat with my VAR (who I actually like) and he confirmed the same thing.  PTC implemented a policy in October, 2016 where they no longer allow partial maintenance renewals unless you are willing to sign a letter relinquishing your rights to the off-maintenance licenses.  You do have the option to not sign the letter, but then they have the option to not allow you to renew.  Basically there are three scenarios:

                                                1. Renew maintenance on all of the licenses, and keep using them indefinitely (perpetually).
                                                2. Don't renew maintenance on any of the licenses, and keep using them indefinitely (perpetually).
                                                3. Renew maintenance on just some of the licenses, and permanently relinquish your rights to the off-maintenance licenses.

                                                 

                                                This is the "legal" policy.  Practically PTC has been much more flexible.  Some people have refused to sign the relinquish agreements but PTC still allowed them to partially renew.  It really depends on the situation and the negotiation between PTC and your VAR.  You're much more likely to be able to stop paying maintenance on 5% or 10% of your licenses than you are trying to stop paying on 50% or 80%.  It really is handled on a case by case basis.

                                                 

                                                Keep in mind as well that PTC is working to actively move everyone over to the subscription model.  Sooner or later the perpetual maintenance renewal prices will become so high that it won't make sense to continue with them, even at the loss of the perpetual license "ownership".

                                            • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                              jnelson Bronze

                                              Tom

                                               

                                              Keep in mind as well that PTC is working to actively move everyone over to the subscription model.  Sooner or later the perpetual maintenance renewal prices will become so high that it won't make sense to continue with them, even at the loss of the perpetual license "ownership".


                                              While I agree with your statement, at the same time I can argue that the maintenance on perpetual licenses are already overly expensive, especially considering the consistent issues that are within every release. New functionality never completed within one release (sometimes taking multiple releases to complete), new "bugs" in the software releases that never get resolved (intended functionality), compatibility with PRO/E and Windchill, and so called major releases that get delayed not just months but in some cases years.... The cost to small businesses to maintenance licenses for what is just a TOOL to get the job done is hard to justify (cost to small businesses may look like peanuts to the larger companies, but it does have a big impact)


                                              Now that subscriptions are being forced upon us (like shoved down our throats), I think in the long run subscriptions are going to be even more expensive to the small businesses. Being FORCED to pay a subscription maintenance just to use the software, regardless of the release, is going to be more costly because once the subscription expires the software can no longer be used. Even if I were to eliminate PRO/E all together here and move to something else, I still need to maintain the subscription for access to my Windchill maintained files.


                                              In my opinion, just mine, I think PTC is going to start losing customers, especially the small businesses simply because of the subscriptions. For my company, I have already started looking at what other options are available, and the overall cost, because I would rather pay that upfront overly expensive price to own the software. However, I will say this, if the subscriptions were going in the direction we were led to believe when CREO was first introduced, I may have a different view on this, especially if I could do subscription on a "per module" basis" and keep my PRO/E base module on a perpetual license


                                              (CREO was marketed something like ANY LICENSE, AT TIME....blah blah blah)

                                                • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                                  TomD.inPDX PTC Community Champion

                                                  The problem with subscriptions is the fine print.  Minimum subscription periods and possible fees.  They will only refine this to make the greatest profit unless they sense a drop-off of membership.  For the most part, I doubt PTC gives one hoot about us one-license users.  We are their bottleneck.  Too much effort to keep us happy.  So they turned their backs on us.  It is no longer a partnership as it was in the early days.  It is like everything else, just another gouging of the people struggling the most.

                                                    • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                                      Stephen Williams PTC Community Champion

                                                      I figured other software companies were headed in the same direction. Who else in the CAD world is turning to the subscription plan?

                                                        • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                                          BenLoosli PTC Community Champion

                                                          SolidWorks has already done it.

                                                            • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                                              TomUminn PTC Community Champion

                                                              Yes, but SolidWorks still gives the option to stay with perpetual.  They state that they will continue with both options, so the user can choose what is best for them. - Which is Right For You, Perpetual or Term Licenses?  (This is probably the most honest article I've seen on this issue from any CAD vendor.)

                                                              • "Perpetual licensing with subscription offers the lowest total cost of ownership over the long haul."
                                                              • "At SOLIDWORKS we have no plans to stop selling or retire perpetual licenses. We understand that perpetual and term serve different needs, and there is no one-size-fits-all approach for license provisioning that meets all our customers’ needs."

                                                               

                                                              Autodesk is now subscription only for new licenses.  Existing perpetual licenses can still be maintained.

                                                               

                                                              Doing some quick searching I came across these two articles:

                                                              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                              Beth Stackpole - PTC CAD Software Blog - Why CAD Companies Can’t Ignore Subscription Licensing | PTC

                                                              "As with any new paradigm, there will always be detractors, and the subscription model won’t be a perfect fit for every company. Some will argue that there is no sound business case for staying current on the latest software release, making a one-time software purchase a better fit. Others will contend that paying monthly fees to “rent” a software license as opposed to buying it outright can actually end up costing more in the long term, which according to experts, may actually be true in many cases when companies sit down and do the math."

                                                              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                              CAD Vendors Think This Many Customers Want Subscriptions - http://www.worldcadaccess.com/blog/2016/04/what-cad-vendors-think-customers-want-in-subscriptions.html

                                                               

                                                              The executives of stock-funded CAD vendors need to roll in increasing revenues to satisfy Wall Street, enhance the value of shares, make shareholders happier, and subsequently keep their jobs. One way to increase profits in a mature market like CAD is to charge customers more. One way to charge more is to charge customers every year (aka subscriptions) instead once (aka perpetual).

                                                               

                                                              Subscriptions are (supposed to be) v-e-r-y lucrative. Using the latest pricing from Autodesk, for instance, we see that the world's second largest CAD vendor makes more from customers by charging them annual subscription fees after just four years, as compared with a perpetual license + annual maintenance fee.

                                                               

                                                              Ironically, the drawback to Autodesk and PTC going gung-ho on subscriptions is that their revenues are falling, while Dassault's is increasing. PTC is stuck in the low $1-billion revenue range, Autodesk at around $2.5 billion, while Dassault is surging from $3 billion last year to breaching $4 billion next year.

                                                               

                                                              In summary:

                                                              • Autodesk says 100% of customers want subscriptions; reported revenues are falling
                                                              • PTC says over 70% of customers want subscriptions; reported revenues are falling
                                                              • Dassault says vast majority of Solidworks customers don't want subscriptions; reported revenues are increasing

                                                              Autodesk and PTC insist the revenue decline is temporary. Dassault doesn't need to make the apology.

                                                                • Re: Creo Parametric Maintenance & Licensing
                                                                  TomD.inPDX PTC Community Champion

                                                                  just a note: Dassault is not only Solidworks... it includes Catia, their flagship.

                                                                  Solidworks is a struggling little orphan to them.

                                                                   

                                                                  Nice to know the numbers.  PTC doesn't have a core to support the levels of Catia, nor do they have the programmers to create a bigger, better, badder core.

                                                                  All PTC seems to be able to do is "add value" with their very powerful and stable programming engine.

                                                                  I was never looking at PTC making the grade with people like Autodesk or Dassault.

                                                                  It became very apparent very early into Creo, nothing will ever really change for us.  We just get stifled with useless upgrades and empty promises along with some very serious deceptive advertising that is propagated by VARs.  PTC has nothing to move forward with.  Their talent has long left the building.

                                                                   

                                                                  Others:  Onshape?